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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1853
(12/2/01 8:44:08 pm)
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Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well, since it's the best thread ever, I can't take out the centerpiece, can I?
> Dear Mr. or Mrs. GogokainOmega,
>
> Do you like the Beatles? How do you think they were able to get away with
> writing songs with wholesale repetition of verses and bridges without
> development? Each verse is essentially the same as the last. How about
> Nirvana? How about nearly every song ever written before acid hit rock
> music? That's what I'm trying to do. I'll admit I haven't pulled it off
> yet but I haven't given up either. (Maybe I should?) The difference
> between songs like No One Else and songs like Slave is that the former is
> composed of different ideas tacked onto each other in an ad hoc fashion
> whereas the latter flowed out naturally from one germ of an idea.
> I have to
> believe the latter is a more sound way to compose music. (Am I wrong?)
>
> Are the summer 2000 vocal performances (including summersonic) on par with
> Classic weezer? I know how to get that back. I'm sure this is all very
> frustrating for you, as it is for me, but I hope you believe that my heart
> is in the right place.
>
> Are you sure you like the unedited On the Edge better? I could have sworn
> the streamlined version was better.
>
> Are you a musician? You've brought up a million great points and
> I hope we
> can continue conversing. Thanks for the help.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Rivers Cuomo
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GogoKainOmega@aol.com [mailto:GogoKainOmega@aol.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:30 AM
> > To: karl@weezer.net
> > Subject: re: what the...
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> > n a message dated 11/25/01 8:25:43 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > karl@weezer.net
> > writes:
> >
> >
> > no one else is a great song. but i like "slave" better
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > You can't be serious? I mean, the way I see it, the difference in
> > the quality
> > of these songs is far too great. You know what I mean about
> > quality of music,
> > right? It's like comparing Britney Spears or Slipknot to Billy Joel. You
> > simply can't say it's a matter of opinion. Seriously, the quality
> > is obvious.
> > Maybe you LIKE Britney Spears better, but Billy Joel writes
> > higher quality
> > music, and no one in their right mind would argue against that.
> >
> > Do you know what makes No One Else a great song and so unique
> compared to
> > slave? So many great things. The intro is astounding. Starting on
> > the E, then
> > descending until you hit the A, and then the little riff, then it
> > hits the E
> > and Rivers starts singing right then. THAT is intense. When you
> > get to the C
> > "And if you see her..." part, Matt starts playing around with the
> > notes, and
> > doesn't stick to guitar, (like almost everything Christmas Song
> > and after) as
> > the rythym guitar goes back between C and F# . Then right before
> > the chorus,
> > the F#/G#/B/E thing comes in. That's an intense way to go into
> > the chorus.
> > The chorus. Ah yes. The back ups by Brian are keen, and totally
> > help make the
> > chorus (and the entire Weezer sound, for that matter). Notice
> > Rivers does not
> > say "Ha ha ha ha house" this time. The intro is repeated. Brian
> > comes in on
> > "...looks around and around and around you know....". That's a
> > variation from
> > the first verse, it's unique to that part of the song. Dynamic. It's not
> > repititive. This time in the prechorus, the G# (maybe, I'm doing
> > this all on
> > memory) octave comes in. Adding variety and uniqueness to that
> > part of the
> > song, instead of just repeating the first prechorus. This time
> during the
> > chorus, the hahahahouse thing comes in. Goddamn. That is genius.
> > I swear, if
> > I'd written that, I just would have quit. Who the hell comes up
> > with "HA HA
> > HA HA HOUSE"? Incredible. Then the bridge before the solo. That's
> > great; it
> > has energy. So then the solo, which fits the song rather well.
> > The feedback
> > on the last note is held into the vocals.... "and if you watch
> > her go (watch
> > her go) <---that's cool, that's important, it helps build the
> > energy into the
> > final chorus. It's the climax point. Almost all old Weezer songs have a
> > "climax point" (for lack of a better term). The final chorus is
> > pure energy
> > thank to the climax point. The addition of Matt's back up vocals
> > on this time
> > through add to that energy, they accent the main vocals so well.
> >
> > You see, I could write a freaking essay on the greatness of No
> > One Else or
> > any old Weezer song and why it's so great, i couldn't spend
> half the time
> > doing that with Slave or any other new song. All classic Weezer
> > songs have
> > unique personalities that make them stand out from each other.
> > And the climax
> > point, I mean, nothing post Pinkerton has that. On the Edge is
> the closet
> > thing I can think of, and I think it's probably Weezer's finest post
> > Pinkerton work, but it was greatly hindered when that extra verse
> > got cut out
> > of it. You didn't spend as much time building up to it, so it
> > doesn't feel as
> > good when you get there. I can elaborate and give more examples on the
> > personality and climax things if it's not clear, but I don't see how it
> > couldn't be. It makes a Weezer song great.
> >
> > You know, then there's the whole voice thing. Right now, I don't
> > think that's
> > too important right now, but it's the topic of much debate
> > recently. I don't
> > want to sound as high school as our friend asschun does, so I won't say
> > "gay". But it is pretty obvious there's been a dramatic change
> in Rivers'
> > voice. I don't want to go back to the whole Pinkerton thing
> > because I don't
> > really want to sound like one of those freaks who are obsessed with the
> > damned album, and I don't want to piss anyone off. I recognize as
> > pushing the
> > boundaries of what you can do with a two guitar/bass/drum pop
> > rock (sorry,
> > but you know what i mean) band, but apparently it's a touchy
> > subject and I
> > won't go there. But the thing that amazes me about that album is
> > how honest
> > the vocals are. You can feel it. They're so energetic and
> dynamic. On the
> > green album, it's very stagnant and boring. It's like a guitar
> > solo without
> > any bends or slides, pretty generic and dull. It's like BB King says, a
> > guitarist's vibrato is a guitarist's personality. The same applies to a
> > vocalist, wouldn't you agree? Now, I understand there's not a lot
> > of feeling
> > you can put into "Crab at the booty" and that's a whole other problem I
> > probably shouldn't touch on, but the new voice bleeds over into the live
> > thing, and takes away from what few old songs Weezer still
> plays. I think
> > it's most noticable on SIAS, during the chorus. It used to sound
> > so rich and
> > full, and now it sounds forced and not as warm. It's hard to
> > explain this. I
> > guess maybe more "open". It just sounds like he's just going through the
> > motions, instead of actually singing the song. I have bootlegs
> > from all eras
> > of Weezer, and this didn't happen until after green. The Summer Sonic
> > Festival from last year performance is just fucking incredible, but the
> > Philly broadcast from last month is really bad. Maybe it happened
> > when you
> > ditched the monitors, but that still doesn't explain green or the demos.
> >
> > You can't just write 500 little 2:00 songs that sound generic
> and have no
> > distinguishing characteristics. Well, you can, and Weezer does
> > these days. If
> > you pass this on to Rivers...... He'd have to know all this stuff
> > already,
> > right? There is no way you can just start writing songs with a
> > drop off in
> > quality and not notice. I feel that it's delibrate, and I still believe
> > Rivers could churn out more songs that are exactly in the vein of the
> > classics tomorrow if he damn well felt like it. and he probably
> does, but
> > chooses not to introduce them to the fans. I don't think he's
> > "lost it" like
> > most people say. I don't know why it's happening, but that's just
> > what I feel
> > about the whole thing, and I'm just an outsider and have no and
> > don't pretend
> > to have any freaking clue as to what's going on, but I know what
> > I'm hearing,
> > and it's pretty mediocre for the most part, and all I can do is
> speculate.
> >
> > Crap, I just wrote a lot of stuff. Sorry for any typos or words
> > that don't
> > make any sense there.... I have a tendency to leave out words at
> > random, so
> > just piece that together. Thanks for taking the time to read that.
> >
Edited by: gogokain at: 12/3/01 3:22:18 am
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WeezerLosah
User
Posts: 358
(12/2/01 8:46:57 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
wow, intelligent e-mail you sent to him, evidence and all. It's awesome that you're talking about the song structure more than his voice too, i really think we could look past his voice if the songs weren't so generic. I think rivers will try to make the next album a bit to our liking and he might succeed, but he might fail us even more.
Edited by: WeezerLosah at: 12/2/01 8:51:10 pm
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Weezilw00d
User
Posts: 1013
(12/2/01 8:52:54 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well put.
-Mike
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2261
(12/2/01 8:53:12 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
excellent email.
and if you respond..
i think the general consensus of the non-teenybopper fans is that he is totally wrong about how his new music is better.
we should let him know that the formula is becoming obvious as hell, and that the bare-minimum style of songwriting isnt going to fly much longer.
one more point I would probably add is that if the guitar solo isnt taking the listener from point A to point B and really has no pupose other than for the sake of the song formula... then it really doesnt need to be there at all.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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dopenose
User
Posts: 14
(12/2/01 9:00:22 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
"How about nearly every song ever written before acid hit rock music?"
I think Rivers has just posed his own solution, we need to get him on acid!
By the way, great email, hell I wouldn't be surprised if no one else suddenly shows up on the next setlist.....well if Scott even knows it that is.
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Kelly Kapowski Loves Me
User
Posts: 15
(12/2/01 9:00:38 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
I think this is the coolest, hands down, email we have seen from rivers yet. It actually explains a lot in terms of why the songs are the way they are now. And it's even cooler that he admits that they're not close to where he wants them. Plus, with all the points and critisms gogo raised, he didn't seem to get pissed or offended all, just took it all with a grain of salt. And then suggesting that if his voice was better in 2000, that he'd possibly go back to that. All way cool stuff. Thanks for writing such an intelligent and thought out email gogo.
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JamesVoltage
User
Posts: 155
(12/2/01 9:01:36 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Gogokain, that was a great letter. You rock, and hopefully weezer will rock again sometime. And thank you for telling him about how the unedited version of on the edge is much better.
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2266
(12/2/01 9:03:20 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
oh yeah, thank you for posting that.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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surfwaxcanada
User
Posts: 175
(12/2/01 9:05:52 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
wow, this thread is easily the BEST thread i've ever read anywhere ever. Holy shit gogokain, that was truly the most intelligent, well thought out, email. No wonder Rivers was impressed by your thoughts, I'm blown away and (with the exception of the technical music terms, as I dont know em from my own elbow) you literally took the words RIGHT OUT OF MY HEAD. I would really like to talk to you sometime and hear some more of your thoughts about ... well... everything weez, just gimme a email @ surf_wax@hotmail.com or ICQ me at #6760956 please.
You covered every single important aspect in your email, and I hope you dont mind but I've saved it because it is EXACTLY what needs to be said without being preachy or stupid, but simply how the real fans who really LISTEN to the music feel. The points you made about the simplistic songwriting not flying any mroe, and the lack of any real strong solos anymore, etc are all freakin' gold. Also, I'm glad you didnt touch on Pink as that issue is tired as a mule.
Right on man, you just earned so much of my respect, which is literally impossible to do on the freakin computer! I'm glad that rivers is responding to someone like you who can articulate your thoughts so well.
DAMN...
Chris.
p.s. I'd be very VERY interested and appreciative if you would let me know what your continuing correspondence between karl & you is, thoughts etc.
thats all...
Edited by: surfwaxcanada at: 12/2/01 9:07:31 pm
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2267
(12/2/01 9:06:08 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
in response to the beatles/nirvana thing:
the difference between nu-weezer and those songs is that they things like DYNAMICS and EMOTION and EFFORT put into them.
that is all.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1859
(12/2/01 9:06:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
I think I sort of pissed Karl off with the whole No One Else thing though.
"as for me, youre preaching to the clergy re: no one else- i was there when
he wrote the damn thing, i know how great it is. but ive heard it about 1200
times since then, im a wee bit burnt on it. so i like slave better. sorry i
wasnt more clear about this."
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kylevh
User
Posts: 38
(12/2/01 9:07:05 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Yeah, that really rocked.
kyle
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surfwaxcanada
User
Posts: 176
(12/2/01 9:12:21 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
yes, well the bottom line really is that Rivers (while I don't assume he's writing for anyone but himself REALLY) has US as his audience, not Karl... so your thoughts are still valid. Regardless of how much you've heard the song, I think it should still be clear the difference between the two songs, and WHY NOE (and anything pre1999 for that matter) is better overall - simply from a technical standpoint I think. Again though, this is just my own subjectivity coming into play I suppose.
Wow, all it took was rivers replying to an email and some intelligent conversation broke out in here...
Chris.
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devin11
User
Posts: 192
(12/2/01 9:15:11 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Very nice e-mail. I loved Rivers responce too, he's such a nice guy. Every point you made was very valid. Although I think I would need both the voice and the more complex song structure to love them the way I once did. The combination just made Weezer what they were. Rivers has one of the best singing voices around(in my own opionion) and would love to hear him sing the way he once did.
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2269
(12/2/01 9:17:46 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
it was actually me who made the point about the guitar solos.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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420PM
User
Posts: 190
(12/2/01 9:20:20 pm)
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well well well..
Thanks for letting us in on that, gogo. I think Rivers is just asking for some slack though. The formula thing is getting kind of annoying, but you can't expect every song's structure to be totally unique. We're talking about a guy who sites his major influence as Nirvana. I will give you that the weezer songs with eccentric structures are some of the best, and are mostly from the earlier bluepink era. The solo almost inevitably takes you to the third chorus though, so I don't understand what Funkmaster is saying. Taking the solos out isn't going to fix anything. I mean, vocal line solos are pretty lame most of the time (green), but they can be effective when not abused (Mad Kow, stuff from Nevermind, Fall together) and expanded on. All songs start off somewhere. Nothing needs to be there. No offense but I think that you guys are treating this process as too much of a "set in stone" matter.
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| "Ain't nobody dope as me, I dress so fresh; so clean." |
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SilentLoki 
Freak Daddy
Posts: 248
(12/2/01 9:24:00 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
wow, that was a great e-mail. Your points were excellent and well thought out. It's so nice to finally see some great threads on the weezer board.
Since reading all the the responses that Rivers has made to a number of you, I have changed my opinion on him. He's seems like really cool guy (as opposed to the bastard that magazines and interviews make him out to be).
I hope you continue e-mailing Rivers.
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ridd1
User
Posts: 868
(12/2/01 9:25:57 pm)
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Re: well well well..
thanks for posting that. please keep us updated.
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Queero McGayguy
User
Posts: 717
(12/2/01 9:26:18 pm)
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Re: well well well..
omg this si such a good faek emale LMFRAO!!11
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2270
(12/2/01 9:27:14 pm)
Reply
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Re: well well well..
what i meant by "taking the listener from point A to point B"
is that the guitar solo should have a purpose, and be there so it takes the listener somewhere else during the solo.
green and post-green solos are pointless because they are there for the benefiet of the formula, and not for the benefiet of the song.
example: i think we can all agree that 'space rock' would be a much more effective song if that "solo" were replaced with another verse.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
Edited by: Ultimate Funkmaster at: 12/2/01 9:29:14 pm
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lil twin stars
User
Posts: 231
(12/2/01 9:31:46 pm)
Reply
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Re: well well well..
all these e-mails are so rad. i would have never ever thought that rivers of all people would start responding to questions that fans have been pondering for all these years. thanks for posting the e-mails 
Sometimes I build a brick wall around myself to keep out the pain, the fear, and the hurt. |
HiMyNameIsJoe
User
Posts: 112
(12/2/01 10:05:21 pm)
Reply
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Re: well well well..
The only thing that I think is going wrong with Rivers "new" approach to song writing is that, as indicated by his reply, he's trying to imitate song structures of other bands, i.e. nirvana, the beatles...when he was doing awesome as weezer.
gogakain, your email was great, have you responded yet?
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asschun 
Crab is the greatest song EVER.
Posts: 2202
(12/2/01 10:07:03 pm)
Reply
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Re: well well well..
i think its C#m in no one else
Dear DJ, Thanks for the help. I honestly prefer talking to people like yourself
rather than a producer, a manager, or a record executive. You make
suggestions motivated by artistic concerns, you posess greater knowledge of
weezer-music, and you notice the tiny details those other hired-hands miss.
I wish I could grasp the rock entirely on my own, but the truth is, I, and
most other musicians, need some sort of advising--whether it be from a
manager, a girlfriend, or, in my case, an ex-fan, so . . . as long as
you're willing to give the criticism, I'm willing to take it.-Rivers Cuomo
Edited by: asschun at: 12/2/01 10:08:22 pm
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1860
(12/2/01 10:08:38 pm)
Reply
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Nah...
Not yet. But I plan to.
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1861
(12/2/01 10:10:08 pm)
Reply
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...
Where?
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2271
(12/2/01 10:12:19 pm)
Reply
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Re: ...
trivialities.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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420PM
User
Posts: 191
(12/2/01 10:17:44 pm)
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well...
Sorry if I'm too down-to-Earth, but what do you mean by taking the listener somewhere else? The only post-green example I had above was Fall Together so I'll use it. I've never been dissappointed by any of the solos Rivers has messed around with on different versions of this song. I'll give you that it is loosely based on the vocal line, but so are most of Rivers', including no one else. I would consider ITG one of the best solos Rivers has done, but it is still loosely based on the vocal line. So does that one take you somewhere else? I have to dissagree on Space Rock: it's a good counter example to what I think you are trying to say. The solo doesn't seem to be based on any melody previously heard in the song (or after the solo), so if that doesn't "take you somewhere else" then the only thing I can gain from your point of view is that you just don't like these songs. If I'm still missing something, point it out by all means, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I can tell you now that I'm of the opinion that pretty much every rock song should have a solo. On a side note to this: I remember a friend of mine explaining to me that Kurt Kobain didn't like solos because he didn't want to stick out in the band. That was the reason he sited when asked about the vocal line solos, and why some Nirvana songs don't have solos. I'm always in favor of adding a verse though, especially when the song doesn't seem to tell the story or have enough verses.
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| "Ain't nobody dope as me, I dress so fresh; so clean." |
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2272
(12/2/01 10:29:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: well...
in the garage solo DEFINITELY takes the song to another place.
the technical skill of the solos or closeness to the melody line has nothing to do with it.
my point IS: all the recent solos are just there because the song formula demands it. no other reason.
and while some might be enjoyable, they only role they have in the song is to take the place of a verse.
listen to songs like the good life, pink triangle, and the world has turned.
then you will understand what i mean by taking the song some place else.
"I'm of the opinion that pretty much every rock song should have a solo."
so what, youre saying you cant make a good artistic statement without a guitar solo thrown in?
if so, i definitely dont agree.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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WeezerLosah
User
Posts: 360
(12/2/01 10:34:18 pm)
Reply
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Re: well...
yeah, the solos for most of the new songs are just like.. "well... we need a solo, cos all songs have solos, so let's put one after the second chorus (or after the first chorus if it's around 2 minutes)." They're just there, they don't have much purpose.
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2273
(12/2/01 10:35:47 pm)
Reply
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Re: well...
ps.
regarding 'space rock', its not a bad "solo"...and i DO like the song...
but i would rather have another verse in there, because again, the solo has no point other than to take the verses' place where the formula demands.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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420PM
User
Posts: 193
(12/3/01 12:11:11 am)
Reply
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Re: well...
"so what, youre saying you cant make a good artistic statement without a guitar solo thrown in?"
No. The point of the side note above is that I like Nirvana (sorry I didn't mention that part) and a lot of their songs don't have solos or have vocal line solos. If you think Rivers is using a structure formula that replaces a verse with a solo then I would definately have to agree that that is not a good idea. But I'm hard pressed to find a weezer song that doesn't have a solo while even since the earliest days different =w= songs have had different numbers of verses. This is one of the things that allows the structures of songs to be different. I mean, you've got choruses, verses, solos, and bridges on some songs. If you're trying to make the point that the newer stuff doesn't have enough verses, then I would have to agree in some respect, although if Rivers decides that a certain song should only have one verse (just for an example) then I wouldn't question him on it, if he really considered it complete. Solos are not required, but as far as rock music goes I consider them a big part of the expression, and if Rivers were to start writing a lot of songs that don't have guitar solos I would be turned off.
"the solo has no point other than to take the verses' place where the formula demands."
You say this in such a matter-of-fact way. Like, do you know what Rivers is thinking? You act as if he had this two or three verse song (with no solo) written out and then decided to scrap one of the verses and put a solo right there. To me solos are something that express feelings that words can't describe, or expand on melodies that are unreachable vocally. I know you're used to two verses before a solo but it doesn't always work out that way. I find it hard to believe that Rivers would consider writing a song without a solo. Maybe he plans on adding a verse, which seems more likely than him throwing one out just to add a solo (which almost every one of his songs has anyway). So if you're looking for him to add a verse, I tell you this can be done without subtracting a solo.
Am I still missing your point?
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| "Ain't nobody dope as me, I dress so fresh; so clean." |
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2284
(12/3/01 1:06:09 am)
Reply
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Re: well...
"To me solos are something that express feelings that words can't describe, or expand on melodies that are unreachable vocally."
exactly. which isnt the purpose of the new ones. they are just there for the sake of being there.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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nibor 82
User
Posts: 141
(12/3/01 1:24:33 am)
Reply
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Re: well...
wow, who would have imagined that it would have taken an intelligent question to get an answer with weezer.
bravo gogo for one of the best posts ever
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1887
(12/3/01 1:41:19 am)
Reply
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Re: well...
OK how the fuck did you read that after I edited it?
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rezeeWeerez
User
Posts: 106
(12/3/01 1:42:46 am)
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Re: well...
gogo, post it back up...it looks safe now
"My name is weezer"
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1889
(12/3/01 3:08:23 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
OK, this is what I'm replying with.... if anyone has any problems.... address them within the next half hour.
In a message dated 12/2/01 1:52:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, karl@weezer.net writes:
<< > Dear Mr. or Mrs. GogokainOmega,
>
> Do you like the Beatles? How do you think they were able to get away with
> writing songs with wholesale repetition of verses and bridges without
> development? Each verse is essentially the same as the last
I like some of the Beatles work. I'm more of a McCartney fan. Yesterday is probably my favorite song of all time. I think the beatles music was pretty boring though, on the whole. But I do respect what they did, it's just not my thing.
How about
> Nirvana? How about nearly every song ever written before acid hit rock
> music?
Nirvana isn't my thing either. I can't really respect them either, when Cobain would openly admit that they were little more than a Pixies cover band, and frankly, I wouldn't argue with him.
>That's what I'm trying to do. I'll admit I haven't pulled it off
> yet but I haven't given up either. (Maybe I should?)
Why are you trying to do it, though? Is it just an experiment? Why mess with a successful formula?
>The difference
> between songs like No One Else and songs like Slave is that the former is
> composed of different ideas tacked onto each other in an ad hoc fashion
> whereas the latter flowed out naturally from one germ of an idea.
> I have to
> believe the latter is a more sound way to compose music. (Am I wrong?)
You're not "wrong". I think you'd know more about what you're doing than anyone else would. But, in the opinions of most everyone, it's not working as well for you. The algebraic, formula approach isn't turning out that great right now. Again, why try and emulate other people's approach when the old one was great? It's not bad music, but it's nothing special. It's just not Weezer. But then, who am I to say what Weezer is or should be. Let's just say it's not like the Weezer everyone became fans of. But you shouldn't write for anyone but yourself. So as a fan, I'd like the old style back, but it's selfish to ask for that. As a songwriter myself, I understand the need to do what you feel it is you have to do. If you tried to fake the old approach (rip yourself off), it would probably sound cheesy and forced. But if you felt the need to write like that again, it's obviously what you're good at, and it would probably mark the return of the Weezer we were all expecting to return last year. So it's a rotten paradox, indeed.
>
> Are the summer 2000 vocal performances (including summersonic) on par with
> Classic weezer? I know how to get that back. I'm sure this is all very
> frustrating for you, as it is for me, but I hope you believe that my heart
> is in the right place.
I think they're a hell of a lot closer than these days. They were just as great. But I was thinking. Down in the pit, no one is even going to care how it sounds. There's no point in trying to please bootleggers, really. On the record and in terms of the song and it's dynamics, the vocals are important. But, if you put intensity into the overall performance, I'm sure it would come out in the vocals and the vibe of the entire concert would be better, too.
>
> Are you sure you like the unedited On the Edge better? I could have sworn
> the streamlined version was better.
>
I don't understand how removing a verse makes it better. It's just a repitition of the musical idea before it. It seems to give it less substance. The more you can experience the song, the better. If it was a bridge you thought didn't fit in, I'd get it. Obviously at one point you were comfortable with this, why screw with it? Second guessing yourself usually leads to disaster.
> Are you a musician? You've brought up a million great points and
> I hope we
> can continue conversing. Thanks for the help.
>
Yeah, I am. and thanks for taking the time to listen.
Now, since you're so open to things, may I adress some other points you've brought up in other people's emails?
The back up vocals. On these songs, I don't think the falsetto issue matters. All you're doing is augmenting the main vocals. It's not the sweater song, or TWHTALMH. But if you ever wrote a song of that magnitude again, would let Scott or Brian come up with their own parts? Using your vocalists to their fullest always seemed to be a major part of the Weezer sound. But the dictatorship thing seemed to work rather well, and I hate to say to treat them like tools, but that's what they are, really. You're doing the songwriting.
Tuning a half step down? Does that matter? Well, maybe. I can say a live performance of No One Else a half step down is more intense than the studio standard, but if that can be attributed to the tuning, or the natural energy a live perfomance usually has, I don't know. But I think green songs a half step down would sound pretty dead (even more than they already do).
If you wanna talk guitars and live performance though, get rid of the Line 6's. Being the master guitarist you are, I don't understand how the hell you can stand not having any sort of tone at all. I think that's what really sucks about the recent bootlegs.
Solos. The vocal line thing was horrible. I'm glad it's slowly dying a hideous death. The new Glorious Day solo is pretty good. It fits. Falling For You is pretty much the prime example of the things we miss the most. It's perfect. There's really no point in having another verse. It doesn't lead anywhere. This comes back to the climax point issue, that and solo usually went hand in hand. Glorious Day's new solo sounds great, but lacks the intensity of Falling For You's, since it wasn't really designed to be like that. Some comments the sum up my feelings and the general consensus....
"....solos are something that express feelings that words can't describe, or expand on melodies that are unreachable vocally."
"what i meant by "taking the listener from point A to point B"
is that the guitar solo should have a purpose, and be there so it takes the listener somewhere else during the solo.
green and post-green solos are pointless because they are there for the benefiet of the formula, and not for the benefiet of the song.
example: i think we can all agree that 'space rock' would be a much more effective song if that "solo" were replaced with another verse. "
But a good solo will fail without the climax point, or the key change in Undone. The climax point is what made those songs.
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dopenose
User
Posts: 37
(12/3/01 3:17:47 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well, you almost lost me by calling the Beatles boring, but definitely pulled through in the end. I think that's an excellent reply and you got a lot of important points in.
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or0phin
User
Posts: 2
(12/3/01 3:24:58 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
ugh..i know you're entitled to your own opinion, but i must state that kurt and nirvana were not just a pixie cover band as you say. yes, i know he had mentioned it in interviews, but you must take his personality into context. if you believed what he said in his interviews than you would be greatly misled..this statement of his was most likely a way to brush off his success, he placed it on the shoulder of a previous band instead of his own because he could not deal with the pressure that came with it....yes, the sound is similar but cant you say that every band today was influenced by bands from the past? give me a revolutionary band that is out there today. our beloved weezer has elements of a whole bunch of backgrounds in it..what im trying to say is that nirvana shouldnt be underestimated, true they might not be your type of music, but i dont think that they should be downcasted as another rip off band..if it werent for nirvana we wouldnt have the pleasure of listening to weezer today...they opened up the door for good music, and at least on that note people should appreciate them...rock on peoples...
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1891
(12/3/01 3:28:12 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Please. Spare me. I said I can't respect them because anyone who doesn't respect themselves doesn't deserve mine. I didn't say they sucked or didn't deserve any praise. They just weren't respectable. Maybe I'll change it.
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dopenose
User
Posts: 38
(12/3/01 3:31:15 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
I don't know, I think too many like Nirvana just because they are supposed to. I've felt the Pixies were a better band since the first day I heard them. I also don't see all that much Nirvana influence in Weezer, except for maybe the new formulaic songwriting approach, since Rivers has cited them as an example of a band he's being influenced by. But this isn't a good thing
Some people have been unhappy with Rivers citing Oasis as another band he's been influenced by. Personally, I think Oasis in their prime were an excellent band in their prime, and I have no problem with this being an influence for Rivers, except for the fact that their influence hasn't seemed to do much good I guess.....
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or0phin
User
Posts: 3
(12/3/01 3:33:43 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
ok, sorry..i get overly defensive with nirvana and stuff.....but yeah, i see your view point..
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1894
(12/3/01 3:35:18 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Oasis has always been great.
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or0phin
User
Posts: 4
(12/3/01 3:40:55 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well, im not one of those "fans" who like nirvana cause they are cool or anything,ive been around sinec the nevermind days..(i dont even think they are considered cool anymore...well perhaps..with the new publicity).. but yeah i dont think you can say rivers wasnt influenced by them...i mean, i believe he changed his style of music primarly because of em...the whole 'power pop' thing was started by nirvana..all i was trying to say was that w/o the big n weezer couldnt have started..they were one of the bands signed after everyone went crazy lookin for nirv replicas...true they are a hell of a band and deserved to get signed, but look at the industry now...how many good bands get signed a year? not many...eck...i do agree that oasis is a good band, well at least older stuff was good..not familiar with newer things...i think the more diverse the influence the better the songwriter...but rivers shouldnt try to compromise himself to fit in a certain format...thats terrible..let the songs flow..dont impede them with the verse chorus verse trap...blah...
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1907
(12/3/01 5:21:07 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well, I sent it out. I'll post a reply in this thread if I get one.
"....is dan a fucker? yes, he is."
Read my lyrics, or else Dan will give you one brutal BJ.
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dopenose
User
Posts: 48
(12/3/01 5:22:22 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
ahahaha, nice sig
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yo mom bizatch
Kicked out of the funky bunch
Posts: 1385
(12/3/01 11:12:46 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
that's very well composed, it's good to hear that some people actually know what they are talking about, and good to see that Rivers is genuinely interested. let us know what he says!
you've got such good vibrations, you've got such SSWEEEETT sensations
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ridd1
User
Posts: 883
(12/3/01 12:47:32 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
gogo - fucking brilliant. seriously excellent work my friend. I mean that.
- Ridd
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WeezerLosah
User
Posts: 368
(12/3/01 12:54:20 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
orOphin (or whatever his/her name is) has been around since the nirvana days. It's nice to know that he/she is at least 10 years old... wow, i'm so impressed.
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rezeeWeerez
User
Posts: 146
(12/3/01 12:56:06 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Gogokain...ya i mentioned the same thing about the PODs...its such a useless piece if equipment for weezer. You brought up some good points...hope he replies...i will post up my response soon
*this joke is fun*
"My name is weezer" |
devin11
User
Posts: 196
(12/3/01 4:15:26 pm)
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bump
best thread ever.
Any responce yet?
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or0phin
User
Posts: 5
(12/3/01 5:24:12 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
im 19, i was discussing how someone posted a lot of people like nirvana because they feel they are supposed to..just putting out the fact that i liked them since i have heard of em, that is, since 1992..
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eXxy
User
Posts: 71
(12/3/01 5:39:32 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
tremendous, simply tremendous. both the initial letter and response are putting quite a bit of what i, and i'm sure others, are thinking about weezer at the moment, into expressable words.
-patrick |
WeezerLosah
User
Posts: 376
(12/3/01 5:41:07 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
since everyone else started to like them, in 1992. When nevermind came out and 'smells like..' was the new ultimate cool. But yeah, whatever, at least you liked them for their music instead of just because people expect you to.
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420PM
User
Posts: 202
(12/4/01 1:00:51 am)
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Funkmaster: The new solos
Aren't all that bad. I hate to keep bringing up my favorite new song, Fall Together, but the solo on it is awesome. All the versions of it are great. The first one from Fairfax is a little on the simple side, but the Seattle one really kicks ass! It expands on the melody, as I said before. So all this about "Just being there for the sake of being there" is a bunch of bull. The green solos were just there for the sake of being there, if you can actually make that case for anything. Another thing solos are there for is so that when they play the song live, they can improvise on them.
Me: "To me solos are something that express feelings that words can't describe, or expand on melodies that are unreachable vocally."
UF: "exactly. which isnt the purpose of the new ones. they are just there for the sake of being there."
Most of the new ones actually contain different melodies than the rest of the song, or melodies that are so expanded upon by the solos that they are almost not the same. That gives them a purpose right there. If you don't like that purpose, then I guess you're on your own. They also serve the purpose of breaking the monotony for Rivers while playing the song live.
NOTE TO ALL:
Sorry for probably being way off the topic of this thread by now, but I also wanted to bump this because I thought it was an interesting thread that was going on before all the newbies showed up, and the threads that that event created.
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| "Ain't nobody dope as me, I dress so fresh; so clean." |
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Me Be Beatleweez fan
user
Posts: 210
(12/4/01 8:52:34 pm)
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.....
first, yeah, what everyone else said. gogokain, what an awesome letter. just incredible. and thanks for all of this, rivers, if you're reading this.
second.... whoever said nirvana started the whole powerpop thing. you're wrong. i definitely don't know everything there is to know about music--but i can definitely say that the raspberries, an early 70's band, played a lot of powerpop. and they're just the earliest band i know of, i'm sure there are others before them.
i love nirvana to death though- whether a band started a big new thing doesnt really make much difference to me. i love their music, thats all that matters.
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asschun
Crab is the greatest song EVER.
Posts: 2255
(12/4/01 9:00:23 pm)
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Re: .....
i considered nirvana to be more punk than powerpop.
they can be very poppy though. not grunge exactly, depending on how you label grunge.
nirvana didnt rip off the pixies?
"I was trying to write the ultimate pop song. I was basically trying to rip off the Pixies. I have to admit it [smiles]. When I heard the Pixies for the first time, I connected with that band so heavily I should have ben in that band - or at least in a Pixies cover band." -Kurt Cobain
Dear DJ, Thanks for the help. I honestly prefer talking to people like yourself
rather than a producer, a manager, or a record executive. You make
suggestions motivated by artistic concerns, you posess greater knowledge of
weezer-music, and you notice the tiny details those other hired-hands miss.
I wish I could grasp the rock entirely on my own, but the truth is, I, and
most other musicians, need some sort of advising--whether it be from a
manager, a girlfriend, or, in my case, an ex-fan, so . . . as long as
you're willing to give the criticism, I'm willing to take it.-Rivers Cuomo
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Ultimate Funkmaster
'Iron Chef'
Posts: 2296
(12/4/01 9:02:56 pm)
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Re: .....
i never said the new solos were bad.
some are quite rad.
i suppose its just the lack of self-expression in the songs as a whole which bothers me.
you gave me your hand, you gave me your hand, and i dont understand why you dont want it back
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Me Be Beatleweez fan
user
Posts: 211
(12/4/01 9:17:57 pm)
Reply
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.....
that too. about them being a punk band. before i started reading up on music in general (which was really recently,like within the past couple years) i never thought anyone would consider nirvana to be pop anything. it is kinda pop, the melodies are, but overall their sound is much more like a punk band.
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or0phin
User
Posts: 8
(12/4/01 10:33:55 pm)
Reply
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Re: .....
eh..i know many punk fans that would piss their pants if they heard nirvana was described as pure punk..true, they did possess elements of punk in them, but they made punk mainstream, essentially taking pop and mixing it with punk and hard rock...punk alone can not be accepted by the mainstream culture.. just look at the local punk scene by you and you will understand why most likely..punk is meant to be underground..the sound is just too harsh to achieve any sort of mainstream following..you might say that in utero is punk..that i would agree with to a certain point..but nevermind was way way too polished to be considered even remotely punk..it was pop rock poppin on your tounge as krist would have described it ...
nirvana was able to bring that type of music to the mainstream though, pop-punk that is, which many thought could never happen...so in that case i credited them for the appearence of weezer, as well as everclear, pearl jam, mudhoney....on and on it goes....true, kurt was influenced by the pixies and did try to write songs in the same vein, but cant you say the same thing about rivers with nirvana? or any artist with the beatles? one cant just dummy down a band by associating them with a previous band..each band is influenced by the past and combines their own talent with what they were presented with in their youth..
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asschun
Crab is the greatest song EVER.
Posts: 2259
(12/4/01 10:48:02 pm)
Reply
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Re: .....
they are punk more than anything
Dear DJ, Thanks for the help. I honestly prefer talking to people like yourself
rather than a producer, a manager, or a record executive. You make
suggestions motivated by artistic concerns, you posess greater knowledge of
weezer-music, and you notice the tiny details those other hired-hands miss.
I wish I could grasp the rock entirely on my own, but the truth is, I, and
most other musicians, need some sort of advising--whether it be from a
manager, a girlfriend, or, in my case, an ex-fan, so . . . as long as
you're willing to give the criticism, I'm willing to take it.-Rivers Cuomo
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fakeplasticlove
User
Posts: 1
(12/4/01 11:00:46 pm)
Reply
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Re: .....
incredibly amazing letter. hope you get another reply!
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420PM
User
Posts: 212
(12/5/01 2:17:30 am)
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Wow gogo, I'm honored.
Good point about the amps.. but in a way I can't blame them for getting rid of those. I mean, they add soooooooooo much more to the sound. But they've got to be a pain in the ass to set up compared to those pods. That's what roadies are for, right? Other than that they added a visual uniqueness to the stage. I've always thought in ear monitors look pretty .. gay. I don't know if they throw off preceptions, but something tells me they would take at least a whole bunch of getting used to. Thanks for posting that. Good job. Chock-full-o-good-points. Sorry I'm late reading it but with all that hoopla last night I didn't have time. Sleep happens.
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| "Ain't nobody dope as me, I dress so fresh; so clean." |
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 1963
(12/5/01 2:22:36 am)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Almost every band hauls amps around, why is Weezer so freaking lazy.
I don't think I'm getting a reply. Ah well.
"....is dan a fucker? yes, he is."
Read my lyrics, or else Dan will give you one brutal BJ.
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gogokain
Lord Voldemort
Posts: 2027
(12/7/01 10:56:17 pm)
Reply
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Well, one last bump for anyone who missed it, before it dies.
"....is dan a fucker? yes, he is."
Read my lyrics, or else Dan will give you one brutal BJ.
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brokemyrecord
User
Posts: 17
(12/7/01 11:00:09 pm)
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Re: Yet another MY EMAIL FROM RIVERS OMG thread.
Do they just use the arena's sound system (i.e.: speakers from the ceiling)... and if that's the case, they probably do take their amps with them when they go to smaller venues, but if they don't necessarily need them (like on this tour where they go to pretty big arenas), i guess they don't bring them.
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