From a January 19, 1999 post by Ken Okazak:

"Here's some things you can do to prevent doing business from a scam artist, crook, jerk, con, (uh, I think those are all the words I've seen used on the Trader recently):

1. Do an archive search on the person's name in the Talon Digest archives. Is he an active Club DSM member? What kind of posts does he make? Who has he been associated with? Maybe others have posted about him? This alone has given me confidence to buy the first thing I ever bought on the Trader: An exhaust from Al Blaha. Being new, I had NO IDEA who he was. Read some posts from him and saw that other's wrote about him, so I knew he was REAL, people know him, he is an active member of the Club and that his car is fast. :-)

2. Scrutinize heavily people that have free email accounts from companies like Juno, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc... (and even aol to some extent). Why? Because anyone can get an email account and lie when registering for it. Lot's of honest people use these accounts too, so don't get me wrong. But if the email address is from a Corporation, it is likely to be legit...so at least you know the guy has a JOB.

3. Use these free e-mail accounts to your advantage. Register yourself under some assumed name and then pose as another buyer as you are closing a deal. Email him from your other account and ask if the part is still for sale. If the guy says "Yep, it's still available", then you have every reason to believe the guy is a crook.

4. Look the guy up in the Phone book. See if you can find him listed in the Yellow pages. Seeing his name/address there should give you enough confidence that the guy actually exists. Just another piece of evidence...Sometimes you can even find information on them by doing a web search.

5. Ask for references. No explanation needed here.

6. Finally, use iEscrow or one of the many other escrow services that let you perform transactions risk free. They only charge 5% of the purchase price, so if you are still unsure then isn't this worth it?

I have performed most of these checks on everyone who I've ever bought parts from. And you know what? I've never been burned."

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

You can avoid some common problems by keeping the following in mind:

• Most speciality DSM vendors are extremely busy, and it can be hard to get into contact with them. Be patient.
• Know what you want. Most speciality vendors have web pages that describe their offerings in detail. See the vendors page for the appropriate URLs.
• Know what you have. Be prepared to tell the vendor not only the make and model, but if you have factory options (like air conditioning and ABS) or upgrades (such as Big Brakes, shocks/springs or 4-bolt rear ends) installed on your car.
• Be sure to ask if the part will fit your car before ordering it.
• Ask about warantees and returns. Understand the limitations of the return policies. If you don't like them, don't order the part.
• Write everything down! You may need the details later.
• Pay with a credit card. If you have difficulties later, you can have your bank reverse the charges on the card.
• Ship to your credit card address - the vendors require this so they can avoid credit fraud. If you need to ship to an alternate address, call your credit company ahead of time and establish an alternate shipping address - the vendors cannot do it for you.
• When purchasing parts, establish a shipping time for the part and a shipping method. Do not assume the vendor will automatically ship the way you expect.
• Foreign customers must expect additional delays and costs for customs when parts cross the border. Do not expect the vendor to understand what is involved here - it's not their business. You can see this section of this FAQ for more information.

The Last Word: Support for DSMs has become virtually nonexistent, even at previously well respected vendors, due to lack of demand. Be prepared for lengthy delays, and discuss availability with the vendor before ordering. Face it, you own an obsolete car.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

Most speciality vendors are very busy and are often difficult to contact owing to a large backlog of previous messages. In some cases there are only one or two people working in the shop, so when they are absent or busy there is no one to answer the phones or e-mail. Some shops keep restricted office hours to have time to work on parts. Finally, some vendors go out of business for various reasons, often when the principals involved move on to other things.

If you are looking for a vendor and cannot seem to find a current phone/fax number or e-mail address, it is possible the vendor is no longer in business or has moved. Check the vendors page for contact information. Also try phoning diectory assistance for the city where the vendor is/was located, to see if they are still listed. You can also write to the Digest for information, but please do not do so until all other avenues of investigation are exhausted.

If you know a vendor exists and cannot get a response from them, you have three choices - wait for a response, persist in trying to contact them, or contact a different vendor. If you choose to wait and do not get a response, don't get annoyed, as technical problems may have prevented the vendor from getting your message. If you feel this is not the case, don't bother getting mad, just go to another vendor.

Please note there is little point to writing a message to the Digest about your 'bad' experience. For every bad experience there is a good experience, and not having calls returned barely qualifies as a bad experience in any case. Just find another shop.

The Last Word: Support for DSMs has become virtually nonexistent, even at previously well respected vendors, due to lack of demand. Be prepared for lengthy delays, and discuss availability with the vendor before ordering. Face it, you own an obsolete car.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

DSM enthusiasts will frequently run across this restriction when ordering parts from DSM vendors. This is usually not a problem when you walk into a store and purchase an item, even for non-USA credit cards, but call or email your order in and you suddenly run into problems. Moreover, few vendors take the time or trouble to properly explain the reasons to their customers - a short "We can't do that" or a brief note on the website saying they can't do it is usually all the explanation one gets.

International customers get even more hassle. These customers are often told that a vendor cannot 'verify' their credit card unless it is issued by a U.S.A. bank. Canadians, in particular, get irked by this (after all, we are on the same continent), but most customers abroad quite rightly point out they can go virtually anywhere in the world and purchase items with the same card. Therefore, the card can obviously be 'verified', and no problem should exist.

The root cause of all this frustration and hassle is usually poor communication between the customer and the vendor*. Mail-order vendors are put at significant risk when accepting credit cards via phone or internet. This is because the rules are different for in-person purchases and mail-order purchases, and there is only one reason for that - fraud.

When you purchase an item in person, the vendor is able to get a copy of your signature on the form. You also require the physical credit card, with the correct account number, name and signature on it. In this manner the vendor can be reasonably certain that the card is, in fact, your own.

Mail-order purchases are entirely different. In this situation, you do not need the physical card, and the vendor cannot obtain your signature. There is, therefore, no way for the vendor to verify that you are you, and that the card is yours. This leaves mail-order vendors completely at risk for fraud by criminals using stolen credit card numbers.

Few people immediately realize the problems this creates for vendors. Unlike cardholders (customers), credit card companies do not protect vendors against fraud. If someone was to use your credit card to purchase an item, you would generally be protected against the lost amount by your credit card company. (In some cases there might be a small deductible, but that's not relevant here.) For example, if someone used your card number to buy $1300 worth of parts, you would have to pay nothing (or almost nothing) because you didn't buy the parts.

However, no such protection exists for the vendor. That vendor is out of pocket for the item sold. They will generally not receive any compensation from the credit card company for the loss. So, if someone presenting themselves as you were to buy $1300 worth of parts from (for example) your favorite DSM vendor, that DSM vendor would be out $1300 worth of parts. Police departments usually don't have the manpower, budget, or time to investigate such 'minor' amounts, and the vendor is left with nothing. It wouldn't take long for a vendor to be forced out of business if they were an easy target.

To combat this problem, mail-order vendors are forced to use alternative means to verify the credit card. These procedures, unfortunately, place additional restrictions on the cardholder as well.

The most sophisticated method available to date is for mail-order vendors to use a supplementary credit card verification system called AVS (Address Verification Service). The AVS service allows vendors to match user-supplied billing address information with information on file for the credit card number. If the card information, billing address, and shipping address all match, the vendor is unlikely to be taking a big risk by sending out the goods.

Unfortunately, the AVS system is limited. Firstly, it only works for cards issued through United States institutions. This is where international buyers run into problems: their cards are not registered with the AVS system. Thus, when a vendor says "We cannot verify your credit card" what they really mean is "We cannot verify that the billing/shipping address you provided is the one on file at your bank, because your card is not registered in the AVS system." They often don't say so because the person on the other end of the phone doesn't understand the system either.

Also, the AVS system can be foiled by outdated information at your bank. If you've just moved, or there is an error in your card records, the AVS system will incorrectly fail the card billing address.

Finally, the AVS system deals only with the billing address and is therefore a fairly weak system. If a criminal knows your credit card and home address, his or her purchase will pass AVS verification. The thief could simply specify a different shipping address, and get the goods anyways.

To get around this problem, some vendors only ship to the cardholder's billing address. This almost guarantees that the actual card holder will receive the goods, and not an impersonator. If he (or she) didn't order them, they will send them back to the vendor.

Unfortunately, many legitimate buyers also want items shipped to an alternate address, such as their workplace, a relatives house, or perhaps a hotel where they are staying. These requests cannot be fulfilled under this restriction; a particularly troublesome point for temporary visitors to the U.S.A. or anybody that works away from home.

Fortunately, there are some solutions to these problems:

• Pay by money order or personal cheque. The basic fundamental reason for all these problems is that the vendor is afraid they won't get paid. Pay them, and everything works out just fine. Money orders are not hard to get. Talk to the post office or a courier to find a mailing method that includes letter tracking and delivery verification, so it doesn't get lost before or after delivery, and allow additional time for cheques to be processed through the banking system.
• Call your credit card company, and get them to attach a temporary, validated alternate shipping address to your credit card. This allows the vendor to AVS-verify the card and ship to an alternate address. You may need to provide the vendor with your credit card's customer service number - see below for why.
• Many international customers can provide the customer service number for their credit card company or bank to the vendor. This allows the vendor to call up the card issuer/bank and manually verify that the billing information on the card is legitimate. They can sometimes also verify that an alternate shipping address is on file, provided you remembered to set it up before placing the order - see above for details.
• If you live in another country and make lots of USA purchases, consider getting a USA credit card from a USA bank. The whole AVS-verification problem then goes away. The requirements for getting such a card will vary from bank to bank and country to country. You will probably want to shop around for a card company that can provide a permanent verified alternate shipping address, if necessary - see above for details.

Some of these options may not be available for some vendors. For example, if a vendor is unwilling to take the time to call your credit company, then they won't be able to verify foreign cards. Fortunately, most DSM vendors are more than willing to take the extra step if you make it possible for them to do so. They really are trying to be nice people, they just don't want to get screwed by the dishonest 1% of their clientele. You wouldn't either, if you were in their position.

For more information , visit this explanation of a fraud ring on John Faughnan's Home Page, this explanation of the AVS system from Quality Merchandise Brokers and this backgrounder on credit card fraud by Paul Lang, hosted by Internet Scambusters.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

Mistakes do happen, and most vendors are dedicated to fixing problems quickly. If you're having problems with a part you purchased from a vendor, you need to do the following:

• Understand the problem. Phoning the vendor with complaints like "It doesn't work!" or "It doesn't fit!" is not helpful.
• Examine the parts you bought. Do they look like the right parts? Do they appear like they should fit your car? Do they have the right model numbers? If not, perhaps you got parts for a different car by accident.
• Obtain the receipt for the purchase, so the vendor knows what you're talking about. If you can't find it, write down exactly what you bought (with model numbers, if you can find them).
• As soon as possible, fax or e-mail the vendor a letter containing details of the purchase, a detailed description of the problem, and your contact information.
• Phone the vendor during their normal business hours after sending the fax. Understand that many vendors are extremely busy and it may take time for them to get back to you. Be patient.
• Explain the problem in detail, referring to the fax you sent. Be prepared to re-fax the letter.

Usually by this time the vendor has enough information to figure out what happened and fix it. Options include exchanging the part for another, returning the part for correction, changing the installation method to make the part work, obtaining missing or corrected hardware to allow proper installation, or returning the part for a refund.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

Complaints about poor service from dealers, shops and speciality vendors are commonplace on the Digest, for the same reason that complaints about problems are commonplace - it is natural for people to write more about the occasional bad thing than the everyday good things that happen to them.

Having said this, some of the smaller DSM specialists are sometimes credited with less-than-stellar customer service. The reasons for this are many, and stem from the fact that these operations are usually consist of 1-3 dedicated DSM racers who sell parts to pay the bills. Please note this is an explanation, not an excuse.

In those cases where you have been treated inconsiderately by a vendor, examine the circumstances. Vendors often take a day or two to return calls - this is not a slight, it is a fact of life. If you called outside of normal business hours, accept that the vendor is doing you a favour by answering and forgive them any percieved rudeness.

In other cases, you are voting with your dollars. If you purchase a part from a vendor that you think is rude, ask yourself why. If it's because of part quality, vendor reputation or price, admit to yourself that you are prepared to pay for these advantages by putting up with less-than-stellar customer service. You can still encourage the vendor to improve their service by pointing out (nicely, mind you) that their business could be made that much better by it.

If you don't buy from the vendor solely because of poor customer service (and not because of price - be honest with yourself) let them know - things start being more important when they affect the bottom line. Don't expect an overnight turnaround, though. You're only one customer - smaller vendors are going crazy trying to keep up with the customers they do have, while larger vendors might be able to afford to ignore you. Be sure to put in your $0.02, though, because if enough customers do so, it will add up fast and make even the largest, busiest vendor think twice.

There are also situations where the vendor was nice prior to a purchase, and not so responsive when problems show up. In these cases, make every effort to work things out with the vendor. Sometimes inevitable circumstances create situations percieved by customers as rude even though nothing of the sort was intended by the vendor. Be patient and accept that it might take some time to resolve problems.

While writing into the Digest with this type of information is not forbidden, it is discouraged. This is because 'bad' behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, and there are usually as any different opinions as there are writers. Reports of poor business practice, incompetence and generally stupid behaviour are encouraged, but please consider that a vendor may simply have been having a bad day before writing about rude behavior.

If you feel that you have been unfairly treated by a vendor - that is, a victim of bad business practice and not just bad manners - be sure to read the next few answers in this file.

The Last Word: Support for DSMs has become virtually nonexistent, even at previously well respected vendors, due to lack of demand. Be prepared for lengthy delays, and discuss availability with the vendor before ordering.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

If you have been charged for a part but never received it, contact the vendor as soon as possible. Verify the order, the shipping details for the part and the delivery time. Have the vendor locate the shipment via the tracking number, or get the tracking number and shipping company so that you can locate it.

If the order has been delayed, you can either wait for it or cancel your order. If the company has already charged you for the part, cancel your order and have your bank reverse the credit card charges for that order. Situations like these are why you pay by credit card.

Vendors are not supposed to charge you for a part until they have shipped it. If they charged you but did not ship, have them refund your money (immediately, thank you) until they do ship. If they did ship the part but you never got it, contact your credit card company and have them reverse the charges until your order is located.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

[Note: the information discussed below defines a 'DSM vendor' as an established legal business that sells parts or services for DSM cars, and not private individuals selling parts or services.]

First, quickly skim though all of the above information (start here), paying particular attention to your responsibilities in the matter. In particular, you should have given the vendor all the relevant information and obtained details of their ordering, shipping and return policies before placing your order. If the vendor has made a mistake because of incorrect or missing information on your part, you can't blame them.

There are several distinct cases where disputes can arise with vendors, such as:

• Cost of parts - shipping (and customs/brokerage fees for foreign customers) will add to order costs. If the actual part prices are different that you were quoted, return the parts and cancel the charges on your credit card.
• Shipping time - delays in material or parts are sometimes unavoidable. Either cancel your order or wait.
• Shipping address - vendors sometimes require that the shipping address be the same as the billing address of your credit card. They do this for protection (theirs AND yours) against the credit card fraud that is prevalent in Internet and telephone sales. You can arrange a temporary, alternate shipping address by calling your credit card company and asking for one.
• Lost shipments - this is between the vendor and the shipping company. If you have been charged for something that never arrived, cancel the charges on your credit card.
• Part fit - in cases where the parts just don't fit, tell the vendor. Often they will refund or replace the part. If they will not, you can still return it.
• Part quality - definitions of 'high quality' parts will vary. If you are unhappy with the construction or finish of your part, sometimes the vendors will repair or replace the parts. If they will not, return it and purchase a different one.
• Part performance - performance on different cars will vary. Vendors cannot be held responsible for any percieved lack of performance on your particular car unless you have objective, unbiased, empirical data that their part does not perform as advertised. If you are unhappy, return the part.
• Part adaptation - if you have purchased a part from a different car to fit onto your DSM, and it doesn't work, that's your own fault. You can't expect the vendor to know if a non-DSM part can be adapted for DSM use.
• Return policies - some vendors charge restocking fees for returned parts, something you should have made yourself aware of before buying. In the cases where the part is incorrect, incomplete, or damaged, sometimes they will waive the fee, but not always.

Every so often, someone will write into the Digest complaining of a problem they're having with a dealer. This should be considered a last-resort option when all other (and I mean ALL other) peaceful solutions have been exhausted. A public airing can sometimes result in a resolution, but just as often it results in very bad feelings all around.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

I think I bought a lemon!!! What can I do?

Search for this topic now!

First, do your homework. Lemon laws vary between different states and provinces. You have to be sure your car qualifies in order to weild any leverage over a dealership. Generally speaking, a dealership must have failed to repair the same problem multiple times for the vehicle to qualify as a lemon.

Read everything you can on how other people have resolved their situations involving bad vehicles. Some resources for USA residents include the Talon Digest archives, the Lemon Law category at Yahoo!, and your own local Better Business Bureau. Also check with a lawyer - sometimes they give free consultations, and they might be able to give you some tips.

Canadian residents can read this information from the government, as well as checking with the Better Business Bureau of Canada. Also check the appropriate resources as listed above.

After you have prepared, you will know how to go about solving your problems.

Don't see frames? Click here!

Submit new information now!

Maintained by Sean Costall. Changes and suggestions are welcomed!  If you have any information on the answers to any of these questions or wish additional questions, please mail me.

This page is an extension of Club DSM .